DC Removes All Crises

[tinyroads]

This shit is so frustrating and I honestly don't understand why this isn't a bigger deal to everyone.

Here's the link, just in case anyone hasn't seen it (thanks to Nick): www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/GraphicCity/news/?a=47430&t=font_colorred_UPDATEfont_COMICS_All_Crisis_Events_Removed_From_DCs_History

Now, there are a ton of problems with this in my mind. And Dave, I'll start with some of your comments that I see as crazy. I don't see how you can possibly look at this and say, "They're not invalidating anything, they're still great stories you can read anytime you like, just like every other good comic." Yes, the stories still exist. Yes, I'll still read them. But really, things do NOT exist in a vacuum. I'm really, really honestly confused how you can say that it doesn't matter that these stories are gone now.

And yes, the stories are gone. I love Superman: Red Son, but I'm not laboring under any illusions that Clark Kent was ever Russian. You know why? Cuz it's an Elseworlds. And you know what wasn't? Crisis. Those stories not only were well-told, but they mattered. And part of what made them good was that they mattered.

Comics history matters to comics people. I know it does to all of us, despite occasional claims from some of you. If it didn't, we wouldn't get together and talk about comics from the past, only the new shit from this week. But we don't. We're constantly harping about some thing or another.

Secondly, without the Crises, there's a lot of stuff in the timeline that just doesn't make sense. See this post for a good breakdown of just the Bat stuff: www.bleedingcool.com/forums/showthread.php?47724-All-Crisis-Events-Removed-From-DC-Continuity&p=245031#post245031

But beyond that...it's just poor writing. It's poor execution. It's besmirching the name of something that I genuinely like. If you claim that this is a huge push, designed to bring in long-term readers, there shouldn't be continuity errors made in the first month. There shouldn't be huge decisions like, "Well, I guess there's no more Crisis" being made on the fly. This is a sign of some bad, bad decision making. And honestly, nothing has KILLED me so far. But if this is their biggest push, this is what they've been planning for months, I'm extremely worried about the future.

[kyle]

i hear what you're saying... i wonder if the internet had existed when the Golden Age ended and Silver started if there'd have been discussions like this...

what i'm wondering is does this mean that no major hero has ever died and come back? I mean, Barry Allen and Bruce Wayne both died during a Crisis... and if they didn't happen, then they didn't die... but does that also mean that Arthur Curry, Hal Jordan, Kal-El and Diana Prince haven't ever died either?

It seems to me that if the Crisis events we know haven't happened, then death hasn't happened either in the new 52...

[tinyroads]

And this ties into my second to last paragraph above. I mean, there are ways to get around all these issues, for sure, without the Crises, but...

Without Final Crisis, Bruce Wayne shouldn't die. He shouldn't time travel. He shouldn't be gone. Dick shouldn't become Batman. Etc.

The same can be said for Barry (COIE), Hal (Zero Hour) and many others.

But I definitely hear you on the Internet complaining issue.

I still stand with Dave (and everyone else) in the solid claim that if the books are good, I'll read them. But I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid to say this isn't a big deal and it doesn't affect me (or those books) at all. Because it does.

[Dave Jordan]

of course these stories still matter to us personally, they don't matter to continuity. and we've talked about this before, in all honesty, the fact that COIE doesn't "exist" in continuity anymore really doesn't effect my enjoyment of the story. it makes sense in the status quo they've established, and it seems they're really sticking to their guns about this new universe. also, i have a very hard time believing decisions like this are being made "on the fly." i get why you're angry, you're more invested in the long scale continuity, and that has a greater effect on your enjoyment of the books, i get that. but that's not how i read comics. sure, i like the continuity, but i have no trouble seeing everything up until this point as a previous timeline, and this as a new one, even if a few books have carried on. i just choose not to get bent out of shape about it, because the books i've loved i'll always love, and the new books that i've liked/loved so far i'll continue to read, whether or not crisis existed in this universe. i'll try and respond more/expand later. admittedly, this might've been a little rambly.

[tinyroads]

Without getting into spoilers for Fringe, let me say that I just watched last week's episode of Fringe (S4E2, I think) and they're showing how to do a partial reboot correctly. I think this is the main beef that I have with DC: everytime we have a reboot of some sort (Crisis, Zero Hour, etc.) they always feel the need to box themselves in. Usually the Hawks are a huge part of it. This time, there's a five year timeline, no Crises happened, and Batman and GL seem exactly the same while the Teen Titans (Superboy and [Red] Robin and Wonder Girl in particular) are totally different. The problem that this presents is that people are trying to put things together and they (DC) are giving two different frames. What they should have done is just handle it like Fringe has done so far, which is to say nothing at all and let it unfold naturally. That way, you don't have any inherent paradoxes in the first month of a so-called well-planned relaunch.

[kyle]

yeah i agree that a clean slate would be nice, but i also see how they didn't want to do it because that would've really disconnected some fans, but i think this is disconnecting more fans...

and apparently Starfire not knowing the other members of Teen Titans was supposedly her playing naive and sarcastic...

[tinyroads]

The biggest problem at DC is that they think they know better than everyone else. Always. Mainly because of DiDio, in my opinion.

[Dave Jordan]

well, they should know how to run their company better than everyone else, right? they certainly at least have the right to run their company however they want and make whatever creative decisions they think will greatest benefit their company, right?

[tinyroads]

What a silly response. Apple, Comcast, Coca-Cola et. al. are all free to run their companies however they want, sure. The same is true for all comic companies. But that has literally nothing to do with them perpetually putting forward the feeling that they think they know better than me. I'm sure none of us are fans of Microsoft telling us what we can or can't install on our computers, nor of Comcast telling us what we can or can't download. DiDio (and DC in general) is certainly not telling us what to do, but they are, in essence, saying, this is what's good, and this is what you'll like. I, for one, choose not to believe that just because that's what they think that it means they, "know how to run their company better than everyone else." Claiming something because you believe it doesn't make it true.

[Dave Jordan]

i disagree, i don't think they're saying "this is what's good," i think they're saying "this is what we think will sell."